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Geez, and I used to log onto the internet to get away from my kids' whining and i-know-you-are-but-what-am-I moments.
I think the strong majority of people here are on this site seeking guidance. It constantly is mentioned that we wish more people had the foresight to look into their 403(b) and 457 benefits, and that this site should grow. That means having just a bit of trust in people who could be the other side of the world. Unfortunately, there's no way to know from thousands of miles away whether half of the people on here have any background knowledge to the information they spout off. That's the chance we take in the internet, but when we need answers, that's where we go now.
In reading the recent thread about TIAA CREF, I thought that topic had a huge opportunity to inform people of the terms of a contract that many many educators use (at least here in Michigan they do). It turned into a match between about 4 posters who insist they're less ignorant than the previous person. If mis-information finds its way here then I hope that we can be grown-up enough to offer what we believe to be more correct information without trying to make the previous poster feel like a complete jerk. Keep on bickering like elementary children, that's a sure fire way to make people not come back. If they should come back, they likely won't be interested in any information from you.
I truly hope this site grows to become a better source of information every day.
If You Need To Fight, Take It Outside.
#2
Posted 07 February 2008 - 08:43 AM
Lost In Retirement,
I think you give us food for thought. The back and forth sometimes gets out of hand and ends up being nothing more sometimes than an ego trip game of top this. Having said that I have learned an awful lot from reading and participating in this forum.
Thanks ,
Tony
#3
Posted 07 February 2008 - 09:29 AM
Thanks for starting this thread. The goal of this site is the dissemination of information and ideas. We are not all going to disagree. But, as it has been famously said, we can disagree without being disagreeable. Please keep this in mind when posting.
Dan Otter
Dan Otter
#4
Posted 07 February 2008 - 10:03 AM
Thank you for taking the time to try to bring us to our senses.
The contributors to this forum represent a wealth of information that is of tremendous value to those seeking advice. There are a number of seasoned professionals who are more than willing to share their knowledge with others. Additionally, there are those who learned by attending the "school of hard knocks" who provide tremendous advice based on their personal experiences.
Those who visit the forum seeking advice want just that. They don't want to read posts in which people bicker with one another about who is smarter. I'm sure they get all of that they can stand by simply watching the evening news coverage of the political campaigns.
If we choose to offer advice to those who ask for it, we should provide it without insults, barbs and innuendos regarding another poster's intellegence. We should provide our views in a courteous, professional manner. If there are varying opinions, those opinions should be expressed, supported with facts, in a clear and concise manner. Then, armed with facts and opinions, those with the questions can make their own decisions.
The contributors to this forum represent a wealth of information that is of tremendous value to those seeking advice. There are a number of seasoned professionals who are more than willing to share their knowledge with others. Additionally, there are those who learned by attending the "school of hard knocks" who provide tremendous advice based on their personal experiences.
Those who visit the forum seeking advice want just that. They don't want to read posts in which people bicker with one another about who is smarter. I'm sure they get all of that they can stand by simply watching the evening news coverage of the political campaigns.
If we choose to offer advice to those who ask for it, we should provide it without insults, barbs and innuendos regarding another poster's intellegence. We should provide our views in a courteous, professional manner. If there are varying opinions, those opinions should be expressed, supported with facts, in a clear and concise manner. Then, armed with facts and opinions, those with the questions can make their own decisions.
#5
Posted 07 February 2008 - 10:26 AM
I couldn't agree more. I must say that anything that turns off Michael Devault and potentially causes him to want to NOT log on to this forum is a problem as I consider Michael one of the top experts and very much value what he has to say. He is the technician in my opinion and we need to keep people like him.
I love to argue, I probably should have become a lawyer - but lately many of the arguements have been downright wastes of time. A good arguement is one that others can learn from, while being entertained - not one, like Michael stated, that looks like children beating up one another.
Here's to more civility!
ScottyD
I love to argue, I probably should have become a lawyer - but lately many of the arguements have been downright wastes of time. A good arguement is one that others can learn from, while being entertained - not one, like Michael stated, that looks like children beating up one another.
Here's to more civility!
ScottyD
#6 Guest_Skeptical_*
Posted 07 February 2008 - 10:30 AM
Lost,
The problem is that "agents & advisors" do not appreciate the fact that we do not accept the subtle mis- truths that permeate the industry. Think about the post made by Cork for a minute. He used the term TIAA Financial Advisors. Do you really think these folks are Advisors? They're just sales reps for TIAA. The whole industry is built on this type of "white lie". The actual participant in this case appears to have relied on these TIAA reps to his/ her detriment. That a different "advisor" is soliciting information about what to do next speaks volumes about the way the biz works. So then an industry insider complains that my behavior was boorish. Please, give me a break.
You made your perspective very clear in your first post:
"I was an advisor for several years before I became a teacher for 22 more, and then retired in the state of Michigan. I know variable annuities have fees. Does nobody understand the benefits associated with any of them? They aren't there just so the insurance company can rob you blind. The products of today are not the rediculous annuities of the 80's and 90's that had no justification for their fee structure."
This is of course exactly what the industry wants participants to believe. Respectfully, I will continue to work hard to dispel this type of stuff. I will do so without personal insults and name calling.
Best regards,
Jim
The problem is that "agents & advisors" do not appreciate the fact that we do not accept the subtle mis- truths that permeate the industry. Think about the post made by Cork for a minute. He used the term TIAA Financial Advisors. Do you really think these folks are Advisors? They're just sales reps for TIAA. The whole industry is built on this type of "white lie". The actual participant in this case appears to have relied on these TIAA reps to his/ her detriment. That a different "advisor" is soliciting information about what to do next speaks volumes about the way the biz works. So then an industry insider complains that my behavior was boorish. Please, give me a break.
You made your perspective very clear in your first post:
"I was an advisor for several years before I became a teacher for 22 more, and then retired in the state of Michigan. I know variable annuities have fees. Does nobody understand the benefits associated with any of them? They aren't there just so the insurance company can rob you blind. The products of today are not the rediculous annuities of the 80's and 90's that had no justification for their fee structure."
This is of course exactly what the industry wants participants to believe. Respectfully, I will continue to work hard to dispel this type of stuff. I will do so without personal insults and name calling.
Best regards,
Jim
#7
Posted 07 February 2008 - 11:00 AM
Jim
You keep up the good work. You are not part of the problem here. I enjoy your contributions immensely.
Tony
#8
Posted 07 February 2008 - 11:52 AM
Absolutely, although it's sounding a little dry in here? ;)
As another poster asked a while ago: "Do you have an agenda here...?"
Sure we do - perhaps we can express our agenda for participation in any post:
1) to learn
2) to teach/share info, and
3) although rare, to add levity when possible and where appropriate or needed.
Let's also make the assumption that our best friends, spouses, parents, kids, and Employers (our bosses) are reading everything we write here, because civility is paramount in having a successful discussion, as this is a discussion board.
Okay, you may have a slightly different take on this, things to add to the list, and no, that's not really an "agenda", but hopefully that's explained close enough to get the gist of it.
As another poster asked a while ago: "Do you have an agenda here...?"
Sure we do - perhaps we can express our agenda for participation in any post:
1) to learn
2) to teach/share info, and
3) although rare, to add levity when possible and where appropriate or needed.
Let's also make the assumption that our best friends, spouses, parents, kids, and Employers (our bosses) are reading everything we write here, because civility is paramount in having a successful discussion, as this is a discussion board.
Okay, you may have a slightly different take on this, things to add to the list, and no, that's not really an "agenda", but hopefully that's explained close enough to get the gist of it.
#9
Posted 07 February 2008 - 03:21 PM
Thank you for such sage comments. Lets hope posters embody the sentiments expressed here. I don't want to play censor, but I will if I feel comments are personal and mean spirited.
Dan Otter
Dan Otter
#10
Posted 07 February 2008 - 06:34 PM
Another point of view:
Some of the anger expressed here is due to the shabby way that teachers have been treated by some salespeople. It is therefore not surprising that some vent a little.
Also, it's one thing to put up with salespeople lurking in the staff lounge, but it is quite another thing for them to be doing the same thing on a forum whose title (403bwise) would seem to preclude hearing the same pitches that are made in that staff lounge.
To be clear: I think that most of the salespeople here cut their throats virtually every time they make a post, so I certainly do not want to see them leave. Heck, I would like to see them post even MORE. But I understand those who find this a bit galling.
To offer a comparison: I would not feel comfortable posting as a teacher on a site that is dedicated to salespeople of 403b products. I would not feel ... like I really belonged. I would feel ... weird, like an outsider.
But, as I said, hey, TR, Intruder, 403bagent, and especially Joes: keep 'em coming!
Some of the anger expressed here is due to the shabby way that teachers have been treated by some salespeople. It is therefore not surprising that some vent a little.
Also, it's one thing to put up with salespeople lurking in the staff lounge, but it is quite another thing for them to be doing the same thing on a forum whose title (403bwise) would seem to preclude hearing the same pitches that are made in that staff lounge.
To be clear: I think that most of the salespeople here cut their throats virtually every time they make a post, so I certainly do not want to see them leave. Heck, I would like to see them post even MORE. But I understand those who find this a bit galling.
To offer a comparison: I would not feel comfortable posting as a teacher on a site that is dedicated to salespeople of 403b products. I would not feel ... like I really belonged. I would feel ... weird, like an outsider.
But, as I said, hey, TR, Intruder, 403bagent, and especially Joes: keep 'em coming!
#11
Posted 07 February 2008 - 06:50 PM
Financial advisors and salespeople. Please continue contributing. But lets all of us show mutual respect. This
applies to all of us not some of us. This site is supposed to be helpful to the posters who need advice. All of us
can offer our opinions even if we disagree. Lets just do it in a professional manner.
Tony
#12
Posted 07 February 2008 - 07:17 PM
QUOTE(tony @ Feb 7 2008, 06:50 PM) 
Financial advisors and salespeople. Please continue contributing. But lets all of us show mutual respect. This
applies to all of us not some of us. This site is supposed to be helpful to the posters who need advice. All of us
can offer our opinions even if we disagree. Lets just do it in a professional manner.
Tony
Who gets to determine who is a financial advisor and salesperson? I am not a salesman and dont hold any licenses. I dont comment on investment ideas/products because they are based on risk/reward factors for each individual. I am a participant but because I hold different views I am labled as a sales person who cant be trusted. It is as if posters on this board want to you declare your affiliation in order to judge the validity of your ideas instead of thoughtfully evaluating the merit of the ideas.
#13 Guest_Skeptical_*
Posted 07 February 2008 - 09:26 PM
QUOTE(intruder @ Feb 7 2008, 06:17 PM)
QUOTE(tony @ Feb 7 2008, 06:50 PM)
Financial advisors and salespeople. Please continue contributing. But lets all of us show mutual respect. This
applies to all of us not some of us. This site is supposed to be helpful to the posters who need advice. All of us
can offer our opinions even if we disagree. Lets just do it in a professional manner.
Tony
Who gets to determine who is a financial advisor and salesperson? I am not a salesman and dont hold any licenses. I dont comment on investment ideas/products because they are based on risk/reward factors for each individual. I am a participant but because I hold different views I am labled as a sales person who cant be trusted. It is as if posters on this board want to you declare your affiliation in order to judge the validity of your ideas instead of thoughtfully evaluating the merit of the ideas.
Intruder,
Respectfully, (and no sarcasm intended or implied) it is important for me to understand the bias (unintended or not) of the poster when evaluating the merit of the post. Why? Because when I understand that the poster, who is proclaiming the benefits of say an annuity or a managed fund, is the dealer or rep of that product, I take all of it with great skepticism. Those who work for the provider community often do a brilliant job of leaving out the critical details that will kill the deal. You know, it's all in the fine print anyway. I'm not saying you do this, but that it goes on every, single day in the normal course of business.
ScottyD does a great job of making a point and then going out of his way to disclose a conflict, letting the reader make up their own mind. This goes a long way in building trust in a community of people sharing ideas. If you have no financial ties to the business why not just say so? There's little if any downside for you. And if you decide not to do so, that's OK too. But please understand that there will always be a little suspicion, be it reasonable or not. Maybe we can move forward, debate ideas, disagree, and all learn more in the process,
Best regards,
Jim
#14
Posted 08 February 2008 - 01:33 AM
Hi all,
Thanks lostinretirement for reminding me to be a little more civil and respectful. There is always room for improvement.
As one of the most veteran poster on this site and the fact that 40 years ago today, I was wounded in as a Marine in Vietnam during the 1968 Tet Offensive, one of the most disastrous conflicts to this country since our Civil War. We have a conflict on our hands right here in this little world we think has lots of potential for our colleagues, the 403b. For what it’s worth, here are my thoughts on the current conflict that you eloquently asked for civility:
1. The teacher investors on this site are the most knowledge group of individual investors that I have ever known. We all came from the same single seed; we got taken by the 403b system. I am deeply honored to be part of this tiny but immensely passionate community. Our mission is to make sure that none of our colleagues goes through what we went through. At first we learned to get out of those horrible annuities and get our investment house in order. Now, we take it to the “street” and shout as loud as we can to anybody who will listen. We have the new ideas for our colleagues, K12 school districts and our unions. They all need a reeducation to reform this sick system. We use ourselves as models to encourage other colleagues to learn about finances and for heavens sake, learn to be your own adviser. Our method will draw controversy because we expose this corrupt system for what it is, a secret world of high fees and commissions with no oversight or accountability. New ideas have always started with crude and untried methodology. Some of our own colleagues fight us too because they do not want to admit they were taken. I was accused by my own union from the president on down that I was a paid rep for TIAA CREF because of an ad in the LA Times celebrating the passage of a reform bill here in California. It will only later will our message gets smooth and more focused. I am sorry but we may not be there yet.
2. Obviously, the pros have a different view on this. What we have to offer directly eliminates or curtails their services and influence on a world that was TOTALLY theirs. They are frightened at the knowledge that some teachers have because for decades, the system was theirs with no challanges, no oversight and no accountablity what so ever. Thus, the friction will ensue, guaranteed. Most TSA insurance agents will take deep umbrage to what we say here. But instead of explaining their products in total transparency with all the fees and expenses and let the chips fall, they try to sell us something and when that doesn't work, they attack us. Furthermore, the pros who come here anonymously must have something to hide. It not only happens here, but other websites as well.
Having said all of this, it may be interpreted as an attack, but it isn't. I will be the first to admit that I have said things that were uncalled for and I have apologized, but I will also say that I have ignored many vicious comments by some of the pros about us as amateur investors and as teachers working for the public sector. I have also complained to Dan about some of those comments.
I totally agree with you about keeping our differences civil. Money is emotional enough, but trying to change a system whereby the educators have a fighting chance can unfortunately bring out the worst of us. It’s changing the system that motivates us, not just the money (although that’s nice too). Whats frutrating to me is that when we reject a product that is too expensive, somebody will take it personally when in so many cases, it has never been personal.
What I am asking you lostinretirement is to be a little more patient. We are human beings trying to change a system and the status quo will fight back. It’s the nature of the game, a very serious game with money and influence in balance.
Thanks again for starting this thread. I hope you will stick around and help us move forward with civility and respectfulness.
Have a great evening,
Steve
Thanks lostinretirement for reminding me to be a little more civil and respectful. There is always room for improvement.
As one of the most veteran poster on this site and the fact that 40 years ago today, I was wounded in as a Marine in Vietnam during the 1968 Tet Offensive, one of the most disastrous conflicts to this country since our Civil War. We have a conflict on our hands right here in this little world we think has lots of potential for our colleagues, the 403b. For what it’s worth, here are my thoughts on the current conflict that you eloquently asked for civility:
1. The teacher investors on this site are the most knowledge group of individual investors that I have ever known. We all came from the same single seed; we got taken by the 403b system. I am deeply honored to be part of this tiny but immensely passionate community. Our mission is to make sure that none of our colleagues goes through what we went through. At first we learned to get out of those horrible annuities and get our investment house in order. Now, we take it to the “street” and shout as loud as we can to anybody who will listen. We have the new ideas for our colleagues, K12 school districts and our unions. They all need a reeducation to reform this sick system. We use ourselves as models to encourage other colleagues to learn about finances and for heavens sake, learn to be your own adviser. Our method will draw controversy because we expose this corrupt system for what it is, a secret world of high fees and commissions with no oversight or accountability. New ideas have always started with crude and untried methodology. Some of our own colleagues fight us too because they do not want to admit they were taken. I was accused by my own union from the president on down that I was a paid rep for TIAA CREF because of an ad in the LA Times celebrating the passage of a reform bill here in California. It will only later will our message gets smooth and more focused. I am sorry but we may not be there yet.
2. Obviously, the pros have a different view on this. What we have to offer directly eliminates or curtails their services and influence on a world that was TOTALLY theirs. They are frightened at the knowledge that some teachers have because for decades, the system was theirs with no challanges, no oversight and no accountablity what so ever. Thus, the friction will ensue, guaranteed. Most TSA insurance agents will take deep umbrage to what we say here. But instead of explaining their products in total transparency with all the fees and expenses and let the chips fall, they try to sell us something and when that doesn't work, they attack us. Furthermore, the pros who come here anonymously must have something to hide. It not only happens here, but other websites as well.
Having said all of this, it may be interpreted as an attack, but it isn't. I will be the first to admit that I have said things that were uncalled for and I have apologized, but I will also say that I have ignored many vicious comments by some of the pros about us as amateur investors and as teachers working for the public sector. I have also complained to Dan about some of those comments.
I totally agree with you about keeping our differences civil. Money is emotional enough, but trying to change a system whereby the educators have a fighting chance can unfortunately bring out the worst of us. It’s changing the system that motivates us, not just the money (although that’s nice too). Whats frutrating to me is that when we reject a product that is too expensive, somebody will take it personally when in so many cases, it has never been personal.
What I am asking you lostinretirement is to be a little more patient. We are human beings trying to change a system and the status quo will fight back. It’s the nature of the game, a very serious game with money and influence in balance.
Thanks again for starting this thread. I hope you will stick around and help us move forward with civility and respectfulness.
Have a great evening,
Steve
#15
Posted 08 February 2008 - 10:25 AM
I read it now I can't find it again, but whoever said "money is an emotional thing" is dead on. I love that phrase. The problem with emotion is that it clouds fact from opinion most of the time (spoken like a true man is what my wife would say to me here). I tend to be a no-BS, cut to the point type of person; so when I read a thread that gets way off on a tangent and completely neglects the original question posed I get very very frustrated. I don't even want to read the rest of the thread or respond with information that may be helpful if not yet mentioned; and I find it hard to believe that I'm the only one in that boat. I've looked around and there are not many other forums of this nature that have the membership or growth possiblities we have here. I want this site to grow, to contain good factual input, and I hope I can at times contribute to that.
For Skeptical, thank you for bringing up what I have previously said. I was an advisor long ago and most of the work I did back then was for anybody but educators. Probably didn't deal with more than 5 403(b)'s back then. Now, after years of teaching, pretty much my only circles of friends are among other educators and I'm quite well educated in our retirement vehicles. Educating people is the only way they gain confidence to make decisions on their own. Blanket statements that do not involve fact are generally over-applied. "Annuities are bad" is a statement that I find misleadingly false. Qualify it to say "annuities in a regularly funded retirement plan are bad" and I will likely agree with you. You are welcome to preach whatever you like though. I don't have a vested interest in whatever investments a person chooses these days so please don't imply that I'm pushing participants to use annuities inside their plans.
For Skeptical, thank you for bringing up what I have previously said. I was an advisor long ago and most of the work I did back then was for anybody but educators. Probably didn't deal with more than 5 403(b)'s back then. Now, after years of teaching, pretty much my only circles of friends are among other educators and I'm quite well educated in our retirement vehicles. Educating people is the only way they gain confidence to make decisions on their own. Blanket statements that do not involve fact are generally over-applied. "Annuities are bad" is a statement that I find misleadingly false. Qualify it to say "annuities in a regularly funded retirement plan are bad" and I will likely agree with you. You are welcome to preach whatever you like though. I don't have a vested interest in whatever investments a person chooses these days so please don't imply that I'm pushing participants to use annuities inside their plans.
