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Truth Or Dare For your Financial advisor
#2
Posted 30 January 2008 - 03:41 PM
"2. Do your financial incentives always line up with my best interests?"
This was an excellent question. Of course, if a salesperson does not disclose what kind of cut he/she takes from loads, how can investor possibly know? At least one salesperson on this forum has stated that he/she does not provide this disclosure.
This was an excellent question. Of course, if a salesperson does not disclose what kind of cut he/she takes from loads, how can investor possibly know? At least one salesperson on this forum has stated that he/she does not provide this disclosure.
#3 Guest_TR1982_*
Posted 30 January 2008 - 06:19 PM
I did not see any recommendation to disclose or obtain that information. Why don't we just all post our incomes on this website? Would that make you happy? I think you are just jealous.
#4
Posted 30 January 2008 - 07:41 PM
I think you are just jealous.
Tr
I would be more interested in knowing your age, your net worth and what you invest in. I bet you invest in Vangurd Index Funds while hawking your espensive stuff to unsuspecting teachers.
Do you eat your own cookin? Do you invest what you sell to others??
Tony
Tr
I would be more interested in knowing your age, your net worth and what you invest in. I bet you invest in Vangurd Index Funds while hawking your espensive stuff to unsuspecting teachers.
Do you eat your own cookin? Do you invest what you sell to others??
Tony
#5
Posted 30 January 2008 - 07:50 PM
QUOTE(TR1982 @ Jan 30 2008, 03:19 PM) 
I did not see any recommendation to disclose or obtain that information. Why don't we just all post our incomes on this website? Would that make you happy? I think you are just jealous.
In spite of my previous clarification, I'm not asking that salespeople disclose their entire incomes. But if a salesperson does not disclose what kind of cut he/she takes from loads, how can an investor possibly know if the salesperson's interests are aligned with the investor's interests? You don't seem willing to answer this question, TR.
Accusing me of jealousy? Now, now, TR, that is below your usual high standards.
#6
Posted 30 January 2008 - 08:25 PM
QUOTE(tony @ Jan 30 2008, 08:41 PM)
I think you are just jealous.
Tr
I would be more interested in knowing your age, your net worth and what you invest in. I bet you invest in Vangurd Index Funds while hawking your espensive stuff to unsuspecting teachers.
Do you eat your own cookin? Do you invest what you sell to others??
Tony
I know that I for one am NOT jealous of TR, can you imagine the pressure he is under. Let's not forget that as a salesman he HAS to produce, just like the guy selling cars or furniture. If he doesn't produce, they will show him the door. Everyday he gets up he prays that the next unsuspecting teacher has never heard of Vanguard, this web site or visited the Vanguard Diehards web-site. He is under constant pressure to make a sale, to generate a commission. No thanks. Not the life for me. Don't get me wrong, those who survive can make a lucrative income but knowing that your existance depended on making a sale has to get very stressfull. I don't eny folks whose income is contingent upon closing a sale. It can be profitable but not everyone is living the high life. The fact that TR posts on this web site illustrates that he is frustrated with folks on this web site who are hurting his commissions or the ability to generate them in the future. In addition, if he was doing so well, why is he even bothering with us? The fact is that whatever he says can be refuted with eveidence that is clearly in the interest of the average investor and which does not bode well for his wallet.
#7
Posted 30 January 2008 - 08:46 PM
FT6
That was a nice post. I agree with you. I think we do put the salespeople on the defensive here. Personally I could not sell a product I did not believe in myself . I think I could be a good advisor and make more money than I do now but I probably couldn't live with myself having to lie to people or misleading them.
I think we need to give the salespeople a break however. They are trying to make a living. Its the parent companies and the financial corporations that make the rules who put their salesforce in this position that they are in.
It really is up to us to be smart consumers. That alone can keep the big ###### in check. Unfortunately we are such a gullible and accepting society. A little more cynicism is in order.
Tony
#8 Guest_TR1982_*
Posted 30 January 2008 - 09:13 PM
QUOTE(tony @ Jan 30 2008, 07:41 PM)
I think you are just jealous.
Tr
I would be more interested in knowing your age, your net worth and what you invest in. I bet you invest in Vangurd Index Funds while hawking your espensive stuff to unsuspecting teachers.
Do you eat your own cookin? Do you invest what you sell to others??
Tony
I eat it.
"The fact that TR posts on this web site illustrates that he is frustrated with folks on this web site who are hurting his commissions or the ability to generate them in the future."
That's a good one. I don't think so. Just trying to keep things interesting.:)
QUOTE(apteacher @ Jan 30 2008, 07:50 PM)
QUOTE(TR1982 @ Jan 30 2008, 03:19 PM)
I did not see any recommendation to disclose or obtain that information. Why don't we just all post our incomes on this website? Would that make you happy? I think you are just jealous.
In spite of my previous clarification, I'm not asking that salespeople disclose their entire incomes. But if a salesperson does not disclose what kind of cut he/she takes from loads, how can an investor possibly know if the salesperson's interests are aligned with the investor's interests? You don't seem willing to answer this question, TR.
Accusing me of jealousy? Now, now, TR, that is below your usual high standards.
The last time you sold a house did you require that the listing agent disclose the actual cut they received on the sale? Please tell me you did.
#9
Posted 31 January 2008 - 01:02 AM
[quote name='TR1982' date='Jan 30 2008, 06:13 PM' post='18302']
In spite of my previous clarification, I'm not asking that salespeople disclose their entire incomes. But if a salesperson does not disclose what kind of cut he/she takes from loads, how can an investor possibly know if the salesperson's interests are aligned with the investor's interests? You don't seem willing to answer this question, TR.
[/quote]
The last time you sold a house did you require that the listing agent disclose the actual cut they received on the sale? Please tell me you did.
[/quote]
TR,
Once again you refused to answer that very simple question. That speaks volumes. So does the silence from the other salespeople on this forum. And I won't go off on tangents about listing agents when we are talking about 403b salespeople.
This is a straightforward question:
If a salesperson does not disclose what kind of cut he/she takes from loads, how can an investor possibly know if the salesperson's interests are aligned with the investor's interests?
In spite of my previous clarification, I'm not asking that salespeople disclose their entire incomes. But if a salesperson does not disclose what kind of cut he/she takes from loads, how can an investor possibly know if the salesperson's interests are aligned with the investor's interests? You don't seem willing to answer this question, TR.
[/quote]
The last time you sold a house did you require that the listing agent disclose the actual cut they received on the sale? Please tell me you did.
[/quote]
TR,
Once again you refused to answer that very simple question. That speaks volumes. So does the silence from the other salespeople on this forum. And I won't go off on tangents about listing agents when we are talking about 403b salespeople.
This is a straightforward question:
If a salesperson does not disclose what kind of cut he/she takes from loads, how can an investor possibly know if the salesperson's interests are aligned with the investor's interests?
#10 Guest_TR1982_*
Posted 31 January 2008 - 07:21 AM
I'm confused:why does the amount of the advsior's cut make any difference in whether their interests are aligned? You seem to be making this case but providing no justification as to why it might be true. Does the teacher's salary make any difference in whether their interests are aligned with the student? Shouldn't the teachers's interest be aligned with the students because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO? I don't think that advisors should be driven by any less of a moral code and I know that is the case for me. You are suggesting the same concept as this: if a doctor recommends a more expensive course of treatment than another, disclosing what he makes off of that will tell you whether his interests are aligned with the patient. What about the moral imperative to recommend what you believe is the right treatment? AP, it's called trust.
#11 Guest_Sierra_*
Posted 31 January 2008 - 11:54 AM
QUOTE(TR1982 @ Jan 31 2008, 07:21 AM)
I'm confused:why does the amount of the advsior's cut make any difference in whether their interests are aligned? You seem to be making this case but providing no justification as to why it might be true. Does the teacher's salary make any difference in whether their interests are aligned with the student? Shouldn't the teachers's interest be aligned with the students because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO? I don't think that advisors should be driven by any less of a moral code and I know that is the case for me. You are suggesting the same concept as this: if a doctor recommends a more expensive course of treatment than another, disclosing what he makes off of that will tell you whether his interests are aligned with the patient. What about the moral imperative to recommend what you believe is the right treatment? AP, it's called trust.
"AP, it's called trust". Trust in the true sense of the word cannot and should not be present in the mindset of the customer/investor because the customer/investor is not paying you by writing out a check. TR KNOWS that better than us, notwitstanding his/her spinnnnning (tony, no spell check needed here) wheel.
Again, commissioned based salespersons do not have to place the interests of the investor above their own. In fact I believe collecting a commission to distribute a financial product is proof positive that the salesperson has placed his/her own interest first. THIS IS SIMPLE COMMMON SENSE, NO?
Joel L. Frank
#12 Guest_Sierra_*
Posted 31 January 2008 - 12:33 PM
TR says: The last time you sold a house did you require that the listing agent disclose the actual cut they received on the sale? Please tell me you did.
[/quote]
Your analogy does not apply! The seller knows the commission comes off the top---try to engage the services of a listing broker/agent without having this DISLOSED TO YOU BEFORE YOU SIGN THE PAPERS! You either sell a house by yourself, without paying a commission (no-load) or via a broker/dealer. Even the truly uneducated know this fact of life!
The cut of the listing agent is unimportant because we all know he/she shares the commission with the name of the broker whose sign is placed on the front lawn. The entire transaction, unlike financial product sales, is quite TRANSPARENT!
The agent is really working to get a buyer---the seller is not allowed to advertise or show the property. The sooner the agent finds a buyer the sooner he/she gets paid by the seller and the seller is under no illusion--he/she knows it comes off the top. The value added is quite evident. Compare this with paying a commission every two weeks to ACQUIRE an investment when every two weeks you can be ACQUIRING the same investment without paying a commission.
Peace and Hope,
Joel L. Frank
Pension Columnist
The Chief-Civil Service Leader
277 Broadway
New York, NY 10007
#13
Posted 04 February 2008 - 12:32 AM
QUOTE(TR1982 @ Jan 31 2008, 04:21 AM)
I'm confused:why does the amount of the advsior's cut make any difference in whether their interests are aligned? You seem to be making this case but providing no justification as to why it might be true. Does the teacher's salary make any difference in whether their interests are aligned with the student? Shouldn't the teachers's interest be aligned with the students because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO? I don't think that advisors should be driven by any less of a moral code and I know that is the case for me. You are suggesting the same concept as this: if a doctor recommends a more expensive course of treatment than another, disclosing what he makes off of that will tell you whether his interests are aligned with the patient. What about the moral imperative to recommend what you believe is the right treatment? AP, it's called trust.
TR,
I have previously explained why an agent's cut makes a difference. You don't seem to agree, and you continually use analogies that are inappropriate for this forum.
"The right thing to do?" Oooh, that is a good one. Was it "the right thing to do" years ago for my salesperson to put me into a two-tiered annuity when I was in my 30s? It sure was for him, but it hardly was for me.
TR, people operate out of SELF INTEREST. If it is in the interest of a salesperson to flog a lousy product, he/she will do so. Examples of this abound on this forum. Heck, the NEA has flogged ValueBuilder for years out of the self interest of the NEA Member Benefits Corporation. ValueBuilder has hardly been in the interests of teachers that NEA MB purports to represent.
"Moral imperative?" "Trust?" Are you kidding me? I was no fan of Ronald Reagan, but when he said, "Trust, but verify," that could apply to investors who need to know what is in it for the salesperson. Why? Because the salesperson has a pecuniary interest in selling products that may well not be appropriate for the investor. Again, self interest prevails. This is hardly a shocking concept, TR, and as a well educated person, you surely must understand this.
#14 Guest_TR1982_*
Posted 04 February 2008 - 09:00 AM
[quote name='Sierra' date='Jan 31 2008, 12:33 PM' post='18317']
TR says: The last time you sold a house did you require that the listing agent disclose the actual cut they received on the sale? Please tell me you did.
[/quote]
Your analogy does not apply! The seller knows the commission comes off the top---try to engage the services of a listing broker/agent without having this DISLOSED TO YOU BEFORE YOU SIGN THE PAPERS! You either sell a house by yourself, without paying a commission (no-load) or via a broker/dealer. Even the truly uneducated know this fact of life!
The cut of the listing agent is unimportant because we all know he/she shares the commission with the name of the broker whose sign is placed on the front lawn. The entire transaction, unlike financial product sales, is quite TRANSPARENT!
The agent is really working to get a buyer---the seller is not allowed to advertise or show the property. The sooner the agent finds a buyer the sooner he/she gets paid by the seller and the seller is under no illusion--he/she knows it comes off the top. The value added is quite evident. Compare this with paying a commission every two weeks to ACQUIRE an investment when every two weeks you can be ACQUIRING the same investment without paying a commission.
Peace and Hope,
Joel L. Frank
Pension Columnist
The Chief-Civil Service Leader
277 Broadway
New York, NY 10007
[/quote]
Do you explain the 30-40% front end load you charge clients when they enter into an agreement with you? Is it ethical to take 40% of a settlement from someone in need? How much more of that money could be used to invest for that persons future? Leach, leach, leach!!!!
I'm confused:why does the amount of the advsior's cut make any difference in whether their interests are aligned? You seem to be making this case but providing no justification as to why it might be true. Does the teacher's salary make any difference in whether their interests are aligned with the student? Shouldn't the teachers's interest be aligned with the students because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO? I don't think that advisors should be driven by any less of a moral code and I know that is the case for me. You are suggesting the same concept as this: if a doctor recommends a more expensive course of treatment than another, disclosing what he makes off of that will tell you whether his interests are aligned with the patient. What about the moral imperative to recommend what you believe is the right treatment? AP, it's called trust.
TR,
I have previously explained why an agent's cut makes a difference. You don't seem to agree, and you continually use analogies that are inappropriate for this forum.
"The right thing to do?" Oooh, that is a good one. Was it "the right thing to do" years ago for my salesperson to put me into a two-tiered annuity when I was in my 30s? It sure was for him, but it hardly was for me.
TR, people operate out of SELF INTEREST. If it is in the interest of a salesperson to flog a lousy product, he/she will do so. Examples of this abound on this forum. Heck, the NEA has flogged ValueBuilder for years out of the self interest of the NEA Member Benefits Corporation. ValueBuilder has hardly been in the interests of teachers that NEA MB purports to represent.
"Moral imperative?" "Trust?" Are you kidding me? I was no fan of Ronald Reagan, but when he said, "Trust, but verify," that could apply to investors who need to know what is in it for the salesperson. Why? Because the salesperson has a pecuniary interest in selling products that may well not be appropriate for the investor. Again, self interest prevails. This is hardly a shocking concept, TR, and as a well educated person, you surely must understand this.
Look, AP, you can ask anybody you want what there cut of a deal is. Suit yourself. I'm under no legal, ethical, or moral oblication to you to tell you anything. If you don't agree or don't like it, exercise your American rights and buy it somewhere else. That's what makes this system work, unlike public education, FREEDOM OF CHOICE.:)
TR says: The last time you sold a house did you require that the listing agent disclose the actual cut they received on the sale? Please tell me you did.
[/quote]
Your analogy does not apply! The seller knows the commission comes off the top---try to engage the services of a listing broker/agent without having this DISLOSED TO YOU BEFORE YOU SIGN THE PAPERS! You either sell a house by yourself, without paying a commission (no-load) or via a broker/dealer. Even the truly uneducated know this fact of life!
The cut of the listing agent is unimportant because we all know he/she shares the commission with the name of the broker whose sign is placed on the front lawn. The entire transaction, unlike financial product sales, is quite TRANSPARENT!
The agent is really working to get a buyer---the seller is not allowed to advertise or show the property. The sooner the agent finds a buyer the sooner he/she gets paid by the seller and the seller is under no illusion--he/she knows it comes off the top. The value added is quite evident. Compare this with paying a commission every two weeks to ACQUIRE an investment when every two weeks you can be ACQUIRING the same investment without paying a commission.
Peace and Hope,
Joel L. Frank
Pension Columnist
The Chief-Civil Service Leader
277 Broadway
New York, NY 10007
[/quote]
Do you explain the 30-40% front end load you charge clients when they enter into an agreement with you? Is it ethical to take 40% of a settlement from someone in need? How much more of that money could be used to invest for that persons future? Leach, leach, leach!!!!
QUOTE(apteacher @ Feb 4 2008, 12:32 AM)
QUOTE(TR1982 @ Jan 31 2008, 04:21 AM)
I'm confused:why does the amount of the advsior's cut make any difference in whether their interests are aligned? You seem to be making this case but providing no justification as to why it might be true. Does the teacher's salary make any difference in whether their interests are aligned with the student? Shouldn't the teachers's interest be aligned with the students because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO? I don't think that advisors should be driven by any less of a moral code and I know that is the case for me. You are suggesting the same concept as this: if a doctor recommends a more expensive course of treatment than another, disclosing what he makes off of that will tell you whether his interests are aligned with the patient. What about the moral imperative to recommend what you believe is the right treatment? AP, it's called trust.
TR,
I have previously explained why an agent's cut makes a difference. You don't seem to agree, and you continually use analogies that are inappropriate for this forum.
"The right thing to do?" Oooh, that is a good one. Was it "the right thing to do" years ago for my salesperson to put me into a two-tiered annuity when I was in my 30s? It sure was for him, but it hardly was for me.
TR, people operate out of SELF INTEREST. If it is in the interest of a salesperson to flog a lousy product, he/she will do so. Examples of this abound on this forum. Heck, the NEA has flogged ValueBuilder for years out of the self interest of the NEA Member Benefits Corporation. ValueBuilder has hardly been in the interests of teachers that NEA MB purports to represent.
"Moral imperative?" "Trust?" Are you kidding me? I was no fan of Ronald Reagan, but when he said, "Trust, but verify," that could apply to investors who need to know what is in it for the salesperson. Why? Because the salesperson has a pecuniary interest in selling products that may well not be appropriate for the investor. Again, self interest prevails. This is hardly a shocking concept, TR, and as a well educated person, you surely must understand this.
Look, AP, you can ask anybody you want what there cut of a deal is. Suit yourself. I'm under no legal, ethical, or moral oblication to you to tell you anything. If you don't agree or don't like it, exercise your American rights and buy it somewhere else. That's what makes this system work, unlike public education, FREEDOM OF CHOICE.:)
#15
Posted 04 February 2008 - 09:40 AM
AP,
There is no reasoning with an agent who IS this corrupt system, "moral imperative" and "trust" with hook line and sinker. We are debating directly with the system that we are write about in the abstract. But TR actually talks with us and he/she/it reminds me of the agents on "Matrix" or the "Terminator" m o v i e s. In the 403b world the agents have only one job and one job only, to take full advanage of teacher's ignorance for their personal gain. We have all been there and have been ripped off for thousands of dollars in surrender fees after signing the form and never seeing them again crap.
TR wins more educators to our side with his blantant self interest with "God is on his side" and " I'm under no legal, ethical, or moral oblication to you to tell you anything" twist than all of us put together.
Have a great day,
Steve
There is no reasoning with an agent who IS this corrupt system, "moral imperative" and "trust" with hook line and sinker. We are debating directly with the system that we are write about in the abstract. But TR actually talks with us and he/she/it reminds me of the agents on "Matrix" or the "Terminator" m o v i e s. In the 403b world the agents have only one job and one job only, to take full advanage of teacher's ignorance for their personal gain. We have all been there and have been ripped off for thousands of dollars in surrender fees after signing the form and never seeing them again crap.
TR wins more educators to our side with his blantant self interest with "God is on his side" and " I'm under no legal, ethical, or moral oblication to you to tell you anything" twist than all of us put together.
Have a great day,
Steve
